Curse

Reinfire · Oct 09, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/any_Swift_Sunderer

I get too little comments in there for me to get an idea if the build is good or not, so I post it here. Feedback plz

Regards

Reinfire

XvArchonvX · Oct 09, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

hmm...I don't see this build being able to deal damage better than many other more well known builds. Not to be rude, but I see this as just another build that deals mediocre damage with little versatility put under a fancy name...

SnipiousMax · Oct 09, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Sundering/Penetrating recharge quickly enought that bringing them both is overkill. You don't need both Whirling and Lightning reflexes for defense, and you're better off with another skill besides Lightning for an IAS. Personally I don't think Apply Poison fits in with what your are building for.

Sundering/penetrating is a good choice for a damage skill, and you've brought at least one interrupt, so those are both positives. But I just think you're selling yourself short in the utitlity department, for not much (if any) gain in the offensive department.

Reinfire · Oct 09, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

hmm...I don't see this build being able to deal damage better than many other more well known builds.

Show me one

Skuld · Oct 09, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Marauders, focused or needling shot may deal more damage?

SnipiousMax · Oct 09, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Focused Shot + an IAS like frenzy + Read the wind.

That will outdamage your build, is much more energy efficient and allows for much more utility. Hardly the best, but it's easily a step up from yours.

XvArchonvX · Oct 09, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Show me one

Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Punishing Shot {E}
Kindle Arrows(or Read the Winds depending on your expected enemies or bow type of preference)
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez

or if you insist on running Poison in a direct dmg build:

Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Poison Arrow {E}
Kindle Arrows
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez

or (this one assumes there is a monk)

Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Read the Wind
Needling Shot
Frenzy
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Rez

or if you want to do degen from conditions and have no monk:

Hunter's Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Throw Dirt
whirling Defense
Escape {E}
Rez

or another straight damage build:

Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Glass Arrows {E}
Flurry
Needling Shot
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez

Generally you want to choose between direct damage and invest in Marks and Expertise if you want a strong damage build, go with high WS for a degen build. Mixing the two of these generally leads to inefficiency.

*edit* just saw Snipious' post and I agree that such a combo would be an improvement in DPS.

SnipiousMax · Oct 09, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

*edit* just saw Snipious' post and I agree that such a combo would be an improvement in DPS.

I think we posted at the same time. I was going for the slight step up, but you put much more thought into your post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Generally you want to choose between direct damage and invest in Marks and Expertise if you want a strong damage build, go with high WS for a degen build. Mixing the two of these generally leads to inefficiency.

QFT

Couldn't have said it better.

Reinfire · Oct 09, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I only lose 1 point in expertise to get a mediocre WS, not an unfair trade. IMO any build needs a form of self heal cus monks are not allways guaranteed, and neither Expertise nor marks has any self-heal, plus the poison lasts longer.

And all those builds you showed are less IMO:

- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot
-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill
-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps
-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.

None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself

SnipiousMax · Oct 09, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

IMO any build needs a form of self heal cus monks are not allways guaranteed

If you are taking damage and your monk sucks, stopping for three whole seconds to use a heal that is not instant is not going to help you in any case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot

Distracting shot only deals 13ish damage. Savage deals full damage, and if it interrupts a spell deals +damage. Thus, more damaging. You do not need to disable many spells in PvE, and the ones you WOULD need to disable are 1/4 sec casts, and its a lottery to interrupt them anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill

Only if you're stupid enough to use it while you take damage. You only need a stance cancel, and it's perfectly viable for a ranger. Easy to mantain IAS on a class blessed to be out of damage's range most of any battle... Not seeing the downside here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps

Poison does nothing if you keep re-applying it to the same target (which I have the sneaky suspicion you are doing) in which case, using Poison Arrow + kindle will EASILY deal more damage without having to think hard. As for a standard damage dealing build, a damage dealing prep that doesn't require a condition is going to be a better choice, because you will deal more damage to single targets... and that's what you're going for on a damage dealing build isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.

But it also fires quicker than a normal shot, and recharges instantly when the foe is below 50% health. You can spam Needling shot faster than you can attack normally, and deal more damage with preperations. Course you'd have to think about how two skills fit together to get that one. It should also be noted that it ALWAYS deals 21 damage. Regardless of armor. So against those high armor baddies, it often rivals Penetrating Shot in damage while being cheaper and while firing every second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself

You DID ask for feedback. I suggest you go back to the drawing board before you snub sound advice.

Nivryx · Oct 09, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

in my opinion filling your your bar with 2 lead attacks and a 2ndary attack as you have done is just wasteful. your using distrating shot as an interupt, but if you seeking for damage, you could use kindle arrows instead of apply poison and go penetrating attack -> distracting shot. i'd also think it would help if you took out archers sig and put in an elite like punishing shot or quickshot using kindle arrows. punishing shot still takes a bit more energy, with quickshot and 14 expertise you can keep it highly spammable with a zealous bow string. i'd also reccommend taking out either penetrating attack or sundering attack and equiping dual shot instead. you may like needling shot as well, some people don't like it but i'm not a serious pvp'er so i don't mind the fact that it doesn't flow as perfectly some want it to.

penetrating attack -> quickshot -> needling shot -> dual shot -> quickshot -> needling shot -> repeat with kindle arrows on for damage. this is much more effective than two basic attack skills.

on a side note, i'd listen openly to the advice given. members like snipious and arch are whom i respect for their knowledge. i don't know how many hours they have put into their rangers, but for me i have put over 1000.

you mentioned that needling shot only does 21 damage with max marks. my question is, so what? kindle arrows adds damage, and then you can even go r/e for conjure flame to give it even more damage. and then to take it another step further, use a vampiric bow. your 21 damage needling shot can now do a lot more than 21 damage, which will add up easily once your done spamming a bit.

Sir Mad · Oct 09, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps

If not mended poison does 16-20 damage between 2 shots depending on your bow. Kindle deals 25 damage. With dual shot, 50.

Quote:

None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself

Actually if you have a look at the contributions to this forum of the posters above me you will see they are experienced rangers and know what they are talking about. And they're right.

XvArchonvX · Oct 10, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot

Savage Shot as said by Snipious does more damage, especially when it interupts a spell. Not only that, but it has a much shorter recharge time that gives it great merit. Distracting shot is an excellent skill, but it's strength lies in a shutdown build, not a damage dealing build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill

You may not have noticed, but the only build that had Frenzy in it also had Dodge. This is because Dodge is intended as a cancel stance. As said by Snipious, the correct use of Frenzy is to deal maximum damage when not under pressure and to cancel it with another stance if you start taking damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps

I love apply poison, but it's strength is in spamming and running, not direct attack. If you use apply poison only for one target, you are wasting a lot of energy as shown by the numbers Sir Mad gave. If you are spamming poison on all nearby targets, you are getting the true benefit of the skill. To put it simply:

Apply Poison -> large group pressure
Kindle Arrows -> single target pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.

By itself this is a true statement, however the rate of fire that Needling Shot is capable of when used against a foe below 50% health as it should be, then your DPS is incredibly high. Read the Winds with a Vamp Flatbow or Glass Arrows with a Vamp Shortbow can put out extremely high dps when spammed via Needling Shot, especially if you use this with an IAS. I encourage to try this for yourself.

Reinfire · Oct 10, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

lol this is getting highly enjoyable.

Quote:

If you are taking damage and your monk sucks, stopping for three whole seconds to use a heal that is not instant is not going to help you in any case.

And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.

Quote:

Distracting shot only deals 13ish damage. Savage deals full damage, and if it interrupts a spell deals +damage. Thus, more damaging. You do not need to disable many spells in PvE, and the ones you WOULD need to disable are 1/4 sec casts, and its a lottery to interrupt them anyway

More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets

Quote:

Only if you're stupid enough to use it while you take damage. You only need a stance cancel, and it's perfectly viable for a ranger. Easy to mantain IAS on a class blessed to be out of damage's range most of any battle... Not seeing the downside here.

Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon

Quote:

You DID ask for feedback. I suggest you go back to the drawing board before you snub sound advice.

Yes I did ask, and I thank you all for it. But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?

Quote:

on a side note, i'd listen openly to the advice given. members like snipious and arch are whom i respect for their knowledge. i don't know how many hours they have put into their rangers, but for me i have put over 1000.

Oh, Im sure they know every skill inside out with all the values attached to it, and I dont care if they put a million hours into their rangers. Archon's post in this thread had a pretty cocky attitude. Instead of being subtle like this: "Its not a bad build allthough I think you need to improve it on that point" he just gives a list of things which are supposedly wrong with it, while not saying a word about possible good sides. And you are only encouraging it with your asskissing

Quote:

If not mended poison does 16-20 damage between 2 shots depending on your bow. Kindle deals 25 damage. With dual shot, 50.

If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle

Quote:

I love apply poison, but it's strength is in spamming and running, not direct attack. If you use apply poison only for one target, you are wasting a lot of energy as shown by the numbers Sir Mad gave. If you are spamming poison on all nearby targets, you are getting the true benefit of the skill. To put it simply:

Did you forget that poison can be purged? Seeing poison on an ally will make monks trigger their anti-condition, which will be useless since it will be reapplied a second later. Plus if you have a low WS, the poison doesnt last that long

Quote:

you mentioned that needling shot only does 21 damage with max marks. my question is, so what? kindle arrows adds damage, and then you can even go r/e for conjure flame to give it even more damage. and then to take it another step further, use a vampiric bow. your 21 damage needling shot can now do a lot more than 21 damage, which will add up easily once your done spamming a bit.

Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.

I know you must think me as a complete ass by now, but I dont care. An opinion of someone who bought GW yesterday is in my eyes as debatable as the opinion of a so-called "expert"

Sir Mad · Oct 10, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Reinfire, you DON'T need to take it this way. People not agreeing with you makes you obviously angry and sacartisc. We don't agree with each other all the time on this forum, however we use to take time to listen at our arguments. Personally, considering the experience of many members of this forum, I use to assume they know what they're talking about if they say something that at first sight surprise me. It doesn't mean I will necessarilly end up agreeing with them, but aat least I will take the time to balance their arguments.

First concerning the use of your build, you did not mention this build was for PvP. I don't mind at all talking about PvP builds, but as it's a PvE forum I and probably many readers did not assume it was a PvP build. And actually when I read your advice for the use of distracting shot, the skills make me think to the skills of a mob in PvE, not to PvP. But that's a detail.

Quote:

If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle

Yes this is true. I obviously had in mind WS based builds.

Quote:

Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon

Henchies tank well enough for frenzy if you know how to controll them. And yes that may NOT be that a good idea (frenzy) in PvP - however it depends on what kind of PvP you're playing, and what the build of your team is. But again, we were not supposed to know it was about PvP.

Quote:

Yes I did ask, and I thank you all for it. But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?

You can disagree, however rejecting all the critics one can make is not constructive, and useless.

Quote:

Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.

Maybe I missed something, but how can you refire every 1.5 sec? With LR? It lasts 10 sec and recharges in 45 secs.

PS: especially if it's for PvP, you forgot a rez sig.

Reinfire · Oct 10, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Yes, my posts seem a bit bitchy and ungratefull, and I apologise for it.

I truely appreciate your critics but maybe it doesnt look so cause I try to proove evryone wrong. When I post a build somewhere, its allready awesome in my own eyes and I post it just to see if it can survive the critics from the public. If my build is faulty in my own eyes I wont post it, so if it is perfect in my own eyes and not perfect in another ones eyes, it may lead to some nasty arguments, especially if the other one is as stubborn as me lol.

Ill try to be a little nicer from now on

Quote:

First concerning the use of your build, you did not mention this build was for PvP. I don't mind at all talking about PvP builds, but as it's a PvE forum I and probably many readers did not assume it was a PvP build. And actually when I read your advice for the use of distracting shot, the skills make me think to the skills of a mob in PvE, not to PvP. But that's a detail.

Its not really a true PvP build or PvE build, its usable in both domains. I couldnt see a forum for builds usable in Both PvE and PvP so I posted it here I personally dont like frenzy because of the double damage. It may work for some, but not for me. Its a matter of personal taste. My argument against this was a PvP argument and that may have caused some confusion.

Quote:

Maybe I missed something, but how can you refire every 1.5 sec? With LR? It lasts 10 sec and recharges in 45 secs.

I wasnt talking about LR, but about the Sundering/Penetrating attacks, they each have a 3 sec recharge so with 2 of them you can fire every 1,5 sec

XvArchonvX · Oct 10, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.

If blinded, simply stay back and wait for the condition to be removed or to wear off. If you start casting troll you will likely get healed to full health before you finish your cast. If you are in an evironment where you will likely encounter blind, then Purge Conditions or some other condition removal would be more efficient than troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets

I think this exemplifies the problem I saw in the build. If you aim to do direct damage, build with that quality in mind. If you want shutdown, go with someone who is built for shutdown (mesmer, choking gas/interupt ranger, etc..). By taking Apply Poison and Distracting Shot, you lower your damage output potential as opposed to if you were to bring Savage Shot and Kindle Arrows/Read the Wind. If you were to replace Apply Poison with Read the Wind, you would also be able to bring a flatbow, thus giving you the same max refire rate with arrows that will not likely miss as well as a long range to pick your battles from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon

I never suggested that a shortbow was to be used with Frenzy. In fact if you look at the build that used Frenzy, it uses Read the Winds, in which case a Flatbow would be able to perform with the same refire and flight efficiency of a shortbow, but also have maximum range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Archon's post in this thread had a pretty cocky attitude. Instead of being subtle like this: "Its not a bad build allthough I think you need to improve it on that point" he just gives a list of things which are supposedly wrong with it, while not saying a word about possible good sides.

I did not intend to convey this attitude, so I'll take this space to point out the good I see in your build.

I will admit that the proposed build is the best use of Archer's Sig I have seen. Also your attribute spread for the skills chosen was done well since you obviously read up on expertise cutoff points and differences in bow types before posting, which is a step ahead of many proposed builds I have seen here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle

If you are concerned about spreading attributes into WS, I would suggest using Read the Wind and taking a Flatbow which would increase your maximum range and increase your damage at a lower cost. With the energy you save, you may be able to bring something like Concussion Shot instead of Distracting Shot that would provide an attack that does full damage and causes dazed. Since you are using Archer's Signet Concussion Shot would seem like a more logical choice since you could often fire it for free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Did you forget that poison can be purged? Seeing poison on an ally will make monks trigger their anti-condition, which will be useless since it will be reapplied a second later. Plus if you have a low WS, the poison doesnt last that long

I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against poison here. My point was that Apply Poison is overkill if you only use it on one target. Poison Arrow can reapply poison to a single foe just as easily as Apply Poison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.

Your oversimplification hides the fact that as Sir Mad said, you only get the increased attack rate when under the effects of Lightning Reflexes, which is only 10 seconds every 45 seconds. Duration of damage output is a very important ingredient to any battle. If you only get 10 seconds of IAS per 45 recharge and have to stop to cast a 3 second sig that disables your non-attack skills for 9 seconds, you will be drastically bogged down as time progresses in battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

I know you must think me as a complete ass by now, but I dont care. An opinion of someone who bought GW yesterday is in my eyes as debatable as the opinion of a so-called "expert"

I do not think you are an 'ass' and have not taken any judgements of your build as reason to view you any different on a personal level. To put it simply,I really don't know you and can't view you as a genius or a fool simply from one proposed ranger build.

I will admit that newer players often do have the ability to look upon many skills in new light that other more experienced players may overlook, but I would not go so far as to say that this is enough to make someone who has 24-48 hours experience with the game just as able to understand the game as someone who has played over a year. I will agree that everyone here is still learning and in no way intend to turn a deaf ear to anyone simply because of experience.

Reinfire · Oct 10, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

If you are concerned about spreading attributes into WS, I would suggest using Read the Wind and taking a Flatbow which would increase your maximum range and increase your damage at a lower cost. With the energy you save, you may be able to bring something like Concussion Shot instead of Distracting Shot that would provide an attack that does full damage and causes dazed. Since you are using Archer's Signet Concussion Shot would seem like a more logical choice since you could often fire it for free.

Actually it doesnt matter in energy much since your first 4 attacks cost no energy, so youll get back to 25 even with a 15E prep.

1 Question, do the Armour penetrations from the hornbow and Penetrating Attack add up to 30%?

SparhawkJC · Oct 10, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

No, you only get the 20% armor penetration from Penetrating Attack.

Sir Mad · Oct 10, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

I wasnt talking about LR, but about the Sundering/Penetrating attacks, they each have a 3 sec recharge so with 2 of them you can fire every 1,5 sec

Unfortunately that's not how it works. If you look carefully at your bow attack skills when you hit them when they are recharged (except the interupts) you will notice they'll start "glowing" during a short while before they actually take effect (same thing than when you click a skill while your already using one): it corresponds to the refiring rate of your bow. That's also why IAS will work when you use bow attacks and effectively makes you attack faster. If the refiring rate of the bow was nulified by the bow attack skills, there would be no reason to use a flatbow with a B/P build for example, as a longbow has a shorter flight time (well I still like longbows better but many other rangers prefer a flatbow, and they have their own reasons to do so).